Mr. Homan, stop with the bull. Remember this retirement bill 67-11 and the big money enticing those to leave. The retirement payout is staggering, absolutely staggering.

If the people knew the millions and millions this was costing them in this budget year you could hear the screams from Dunkalk to Cantonsville.

What happen to the Kamenetz transparent government.

http://www.baltimorecountymd.gov/countycouncil/legislation/11bills.html

Funny, there's no mention of many these people being forced out by Hohman.

Ever since Kamenetz took office the county has been spiraling down hill. Everyone knows Fred Hohman is the one making all the decisions. The worst, Kamenetz names Mohlers brother to a $90,000.00 a year job as head of the liquor board. A couple bottles of beer a week is not a job qualification!

".....the department would save “a substantial amount of money” in excess of $1 million annually in salaries and benefits."
They are just getting rid of the expensive dead wood. Bueller whines when they spend money and he whines when they save money.

I think he just like s to complain.

You have no clue as to what is going on here. When you figure in Drop, CL V and S time it could be close to a million in cash, plus 6 figure pensions. Some of the pensions are more than the county executive makes.

You can't even answer what CC clubs you belong to. You do remember the question don't you?

I'll repeat it. Maybe it will sink in this time.

".....the department would save “a substantial amount of money” in excess of $1 million annually in salaries and benefits."

....and then again maybe it won't.

Excuse me for being so misinformed. So let's see we save a million but pay out $20 million for all the goodies.

How do you spell that country club you belong to? "I'll repeat it. Maybe it will sink in this time." You need to listen to your own words, but consider the source.

You don't know what you are talking about. Where did the $20 million figure come from? (and don't tell me from your top secret imaginary informants)

It's just another case of Bueller's Red Arse for the County.

Buzz, Kamenetz might want to take a good look around him, he's picked some wrong people for his inner circle. He should replace some dept. heads. and not have kept folks from the last administration. Why does everyone see this but him. Asleep at the wheel. He's to busy getting his picture taken.

If this move will save the county so much money, why doesn't Kamenetz have John Hohman do something he hasn't done since becoming Fire Cheif, "lead by example". Retire and let the county hire younger blood at a lower salary. It shouldn't be hard to find a replacement as Hohman's only qualification for the position was his close ties to Ruppersberger.

Department heads are not eligable for the retirement incentive. Also, the chiefs that are retiring are the ones that didn't drink the cool aid - translated as they are no use to the fire chief, and they didn't back KK. It's ashame as the ones retiring are the only ones (with 1 or 2 exceptions) that have a clue how to run the fire department.

Oh, BTW, the position eliminated does not have to be one of those that were eligable for the incentive...it could be any position in the department....they already eliminated 5 FID spots last summer...they only have to eliminate a couple more...next year they will promote or selec tmore chiefs to fill the spots of those that retired.

Why would a Fire Chief force out his experienced staff to meet the demands of the budget. Then turn around (rumor has it; promote someone who has been in a senior command position for less then a year to assistant chief). I’m sure the answer is not because he is an African American and not because he lives on Maryland’s eastern shore and not to fill the spot of a retiring assistant chief, and not because there are several others far more then qualified then him to fill the position. Thats not cutting the budget thats giving the fire chief his political win at the tax payers expense. This will keep the department with two useless assistant chiefs. One is fine we are all doing more with less theses days. We as citizens have to do it, aint that right Mr. Kamenetz. The other Assistant Chief, who also does not live in the county, continues to apply for fire chief jobs across the county. (See http://www.kztv10.com/news/corpus-christi-fire-chief-finalists-named/). I think the fire chief should listen to his own words and go with the other one third of his command staff. Hohman’s own words “I have worked for the Baltimore County Fire Department for more than 34 years…..” So Mr. Kamenetz, how much does a 34 year Fire chief make? And how long is to long to stay working at that salary? Your other department heads with less time are going (going ....is for a lack of a better word) why not him. Retirement is great and getting together for fellowship is better.

Why is there no mention of the FD staff being forced out by Hohman?? Investigate that!

JD, you're right on. Buzz, you are well informed and you know what is going on. Robert A, like it or not Buzz is right.

Larry, thank you. This is my opinion of how these issues become problems for the administration. Both Kamenetz, Olszewski along with members of the inner circle, Jablon and -- well put it this way -- not much has changed for the last 16 years.

This goes back to the days when in order to stay in elected office, the support of the unions was a must. In order to garnish that support, those in office promised their support on issues like MONEY.!

There was a time when each agency would watch what the other departments were making and it became a race to the dinner table. That is all fine and dandy when during the real estate boom, everyone was cashing in on something, but when the bubble burst someone said show me the money and now the county is saying -- we've got a problem.

People like Armstrong claim to have knowledge of everything and yet cannot provide one example of anything they have accomplished in their lives. They are good at dishing it out but when challenged they fold up like a cheap suit.

The leadership forgot one important issue regarding local governments -- money does not grow on trees.

There have been requests for the figures from the county and they have already started the old two step. The figures will astound the public when they come out because programs like Drop, CL, S and V time can add up to a ton of money especially when you have the numbers that are leaving.

Buzz:

I'll assume that this pay-out is something that these manager's are entitled too? Do you know how many of the police commanders are leaving under this program? A friend of mine, whom is an officer, told me that he thought it was 10 or 11 going. Each of them, except 1 or 2, is in excess of 30+ years. I bet those figures will be through the roof also!

Steve, I know of two amounts I can attest to. One was a lieutenant with 40 years on the job. He retired with $525,000 in cash and a pension of $127,000 per year. The other one received just under $1 million in cash, and a pension of $180,000 a year.

I might be off a few dollars but it is close enough. I received a new list of 17 that have announced they too are leaving in addition to the ones announced in Patch's and the Sun's articles.

It was easy for the politicians to grant these kinds of pensions and payouts because it was not their money. The pendulum swung too far over the years not only here but other areas also.

I think there is one person on this site that thinks I make this stuff up. Then again when they themselves are make believe what would you expect?

http://archives.citypaper.net/articles/2010/04/22/philadelphia-city-council-drop-program

The really strange part about this whole situation is that these payouts did not just happen over night. The current leadership of the Kamenetz administration including Moxley, Oliver, Olszewski and Gardina -- not much has changed -- knew this was coming. Remember they were in office for the last 16 or more years.

The council passes the budget, but during the boom days of wine and roses, who cared, as long as the unions lined them up with votes and campaign contributions.

Most reporters do not dig deep enough for the real story but rely on sanitized press releases. The county is great in the art of spin control but if the real numbers come out people will be shocked.

Steve, based on the contracts you are correct in your assessment of they are entitled too these payouts, it's just the amounts they are entitled too during these dark economic times. The public needs to know and understand how these things get out of control.

Buzz, I agree with most of what you say, but..." The figures will astound the public when they come out because programs like Drop, CL, S and V time can add up to a ton of money especially when you have the numbers that are leaving.

The numbers may be astounding but , S and DROP come out of the pension, which many say that even with large DROP payouts is solvent. The CL and L are what come out of each department's budget. This is the county's fault to let these hours be accrued. They are limited, but many hours were made at a lesser salary, good for the employee, bad for the county.

I have heard the police are eliminating the 3 col. positions, 2 of which are retiring and one will be made either the new Deputy Chief position or demoted to Major. I think Johnson wants to stick around, but who knows what he is allowed to do.

Then there is the other problem, the rumor of a Director of Public safety...Mr John Homan. A man with only a HS diploma and no police experience being in charge of not only the FD but the PD as well? Hmmh.

I know all about the DROP program and how the numbers are calculated. Bueller just has a case of the Red Ass because he didn't get a cut of the pie.
These programs were put into place a long time ago and a deal is a deal. It's no sense crying about them now.
Bueller, you were in the FOP. You took advantage of all the benefits and compensation that they negotiated for you and now you try and turn around and badmouth them.
A real class act you are! NOT!

You are just whining because these other people got better deals.
A deal is a deal. Would you have the County renege on it's agreements?

I have to hand it to you though, you aren't as smart as you think you are and you aren't as dumb as you look.

Mr. Armstrong, just to show you that you are in over your head in many of these issues, and lack the knowledge to make informed comments -- I DID GET THE DROP, CL, V AND S MONEY!

I was one of the first members of the FOP back when they were formed. When I was fired over a haircut the FOP refuse to represent myself and another officer. The FOP refused to represent either of us.

We turned to the ACLU who took our case and we won after a four year battle. It was interesting because after the case all of the ones who would not support our efforts for a reasonable standard, were the first to grow their hair long as was the style in the early seventies.

In my ADA issue the FOP again would not stand up for me and I told them the only way to stop Homan and Co. was to take the issue to the courts. They finally woke up when the Blake case was filed by Ms. Kahill, which I might add she won. There are 14 more pending.

I have said this to you many times, you are not knowledgeable enough in many issues to make informed comments. You would rather spew vile juvenile comments.

Speaking of class, at least my resume is a matter of record and not a figment of one's imagination.

Speaking of looks, that head is a bit much.

Do you have an accounting or an actuarial degree?. Who is actually over their head here.?
If you actually qualified for a DROP then that would be an indication that the program was abused. A DROP program is only supposed to be utilized to retain valuable employees for up to 5 years.
DROP's are cost neutral for the most part so you are having issues with people getting the money not the program.
The County Councilmen aren't participants in the program so I don't know why you have an issue with them. It has to be a case of your Red Arse flaring up again.

Thanks Buzz. That's kind of what I thought. I do believe that Mr. Armstrong may be right on the cost neutral aspect of DROP programs. From the research that I did, most of them are in fact cost neutral to the system. In addition, given the fact that the employees actually drop back in salary to a date where their salary was lower. So, the retirement annuity will be based on a lower salary. However, in these austere times, the amount of money that these individuals will receive, it will look out of sync to most of us.

Buzz has in the past said it himself: He "died" on the floor of a police station. I can't remember which one, although I think I know. Is it any wonder they wanted him to retire?
I fully understand the haircut incident, as I was a neighbor of the other officer involved. They both won a good case.
And Buzz: don't bother attacking me, I won't respond.

Lets get back to the content of the article and stop arguing about the drop, S, L, CL. All county employees enjoy those bennies. What you are all missing is you have a department head that in his own words admitted he has 43 years in the FD. Exactly how long does he plan on being there? I would love to see his pay out. I bet that would cut the budget substantially. I am an eternal optimist,” Hohman said. “I believe we have captains and others at individual stations that will step up to the plate and take on the responsibilities needed to keep us moving forward.” Now that is a typical quote from a snake oil salesman my fellow taxpayers. He takes a bunch of information that the counsel, executive, and others that really does not understand it spins it and sells it to them. Fire investigations is a perfect example, yeup he took a couple of incomplete stats over to the hill and next thing you know the police are investigating fires involving pots of food on the stove or a overloaded extension cord. Real police work I would say. They are arson detectives not fire investigators. I don’t know his educational level but it doesn’t matter at all. The counsel, county executive and other officials buy his BS snake oil all the time.

What in the Heck does Philadelphia have to do with Baltimore County???

You being an "expert" on Baltimore County's retirement plans should be able to cite the Baltimore County's plan's shortcomings.

What a Maroon!

You two need to knock it off over this stuff the article is about "Command Staff Exodus Possible for Baltimore County Fire Department" Why is this important because the fire chief inflated it and now he has to deflate it at the expense of peoples jobs “I don’t begrudge anyone for exploring their options and making the best decision for themselves and their family,” Hohman said. Now that’s funny the patch should ask the poor chiefs officers that were told to go a few questions. While the Fire Chief continues with his 34 years, big bennies and political agenda. Mr. Kamenetz I thought you were a smart man but unfortunately I have to change my mind. Cant wait for the police try to sell there BS.

“I believe we have captains and others at individual stations that will step up to the plate and take on the responsibilities needed to keep us moving forward.”
That is always why the FD looses...even when they are short handed, over worked and under paid, they still rise to the occasion and do a stellar job. I would hate to see what happens if they ever decide to get the "blue flu" or only do the minimum to get by. The rank and file are always getting the short end of the stick...when they get sick, they don;t use their sick time because of intimidation and fear of being disciplined, they can't speak up for their rights for the same reason. And their union, when asked to help only answers...management has the right to manage, even if it's badly. What kind of a union is that! I feel bad for those that can't afford to retire yet.

Here is the math based on a BCPD Major’s salary grade of a 22 or 23P. The figures are rounded and based on 30 + years of service which is common at executive core level.

http://resources.baltimorecountymd.gov/Documents/HumanResources/payschedules/ps7.pdf

http://resources.baltimorecountymd.gov/Documents/HumanResources/payschedules/ps8.pdf

Their base pay is $163,400 per year. A major with 30 + years of service who takes a five year Drop gives them $817,000 in cash. Now, with that in mind their pay is $628 per day. A 40 day leave by-out equals $25,000 in cash.

In addition to that there could be a 240 hour compensatory leave buy-out which is $18,800 or a grand total of $860,000.

Now take the sick days which are calculated that 22 sick days will equal a month of additional credible service towards retirement or $408 a month in added pension. A year’s sick time equals about $5,000.

Now if 30 people in the fire and police departments take the options -- this figure may low -- it could be $24 million plus. This figure does not include other county employees who are eligible for retirement incentives.

Other ranks eligible in the PD are captains and colonels. The fire department executive core rankings are a little different.

I hope Mr. Armstrong's cardboard head doesn't start to spin after reading this.

The FD chief officer staff are the only ones that can take advantage of this incentive...Fire Director, Battalion Chief, Division Chief, assistant chief...basically anyone that is not protected by the Firefighters union.

"Christmas gift suggestions: To your enemy, forgiveness. To an opponent, tolerance. To a friend, your heart. To a customer, service. To all, charity. To every child, a good example. To yourself, respect."
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You are trying to oversimplify a fairly complex program. What is Baltimore County's guaranteed interest rate? That will determine whether the program is cost neutral or not. I know Anne Arundel County's is 8%.

With a AAA Bond rating, they must be doing things right.

Bart, read this link. Bond ratings do not balance the budget. If they did, the board of ed would not be facing this shortfall.

http://soetalk.com/2011/08/15/4217/

What does this even remotely have to do with a BCPD Command Exodus???

Do teachers have DROPS?? No. (But maybe they should)

I was not addressing you. Bart made a reference to the bond issue.

You raised questions about a specific issue in your comments about whether the program is cost neutral or not. Where is your reply on the numbers that will refute the Drop issue?

Your comment: " Do teachers have DROPS?? No."

Your other comment: " What does this even remotely have to do with a BCPD Command Exodus???". You have to answer your own question because you raised the issue not me. I was pointing something out to another comment.

On the one hand you are asking about the command staff, and in the other hand you talk about the teachers. You might want to follow your own advice.

You totally missed Bart's point. It went right over your head.

Par for the course.

Bart, many of the links I post are from the Sun papers.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/baltimore-county/bs-md-co-bond-rating-20111116,0,3645836.story

This was the comment Kamenetz made regarding the bond ratings: "County Executive Kevin Kamenetz said he is pleased with the ratings, but added that the county must continue to find savings because revenues are not keeping pace with expenditures.".

The same bond rating agencies also gave a triple A bond rating to the following companies: Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, Country Wide and Lehman Brothers.

Is that par for the course or did that tee shot hit someone in a cardboard head.

That's not what happened but don't let it get in the way of a good conspiracy theory.

Lehman Brothers:

http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1923197,00.html

Hardly a "conspiracy theory.". The largest bankruptcy in U.S. history is not exactly a theory.

Countrywide:

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/business/companiescountrywide_financial_corporation/index.html

Barney has announced his retirement and with it goes his famous statements just before the collapse of Fanni Mae and Freddie Mac that everything was just peachy.

The current state of the U.S. economy along with the Euro crisis is hardly another conspiracy theory. I used your preferred Washington Post link.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/european-debt-crisis-investors-confidence-shows-signs-of-crumbling/2011/11/27/gIQAFsJD3N_story.html

"Less than 1 percent of counties nationwide have a AAA rating, county officials said."
This quote came from the Sun.

If the municipalities are a different creature why are only 1% receiving a Triple A Bond Rating?

There is quite a contrast between a theory and reality.

I just responded to your statement regarding the issue of municipalities are different when it comes to finances. You said you read the Washington Post so that was the link I used. What parts are blather?

To Armstrong...Do teachers have DROPS?? No. (But maybe they should)

They are on a state pension system, not the county...so far.

As far as bond rating, the county should give up some of the great credit they have before they take away services from the county residents.