Once again stakeholders are left out of the loop.

The Balt Co BoE has no clue about how to properly involve stakeholders. Another reason we need an elected board, not an appointed one like we have now.

Tom, you and your wife are getting out of control with your demands on the school system. Your first kid should have never got in. Let's look at how that happened. Sense of entitlement is baffling

If you are going to attack someone's character, you should use your real name. I am glad that Tom is challenging this ill-advised change.

Disgusted, your "argument" is flawed in all ways. The first three paragraphs of this post include nothing more than objective, factual information that all parents of elementary-aged children attending Baltimore County Public Schools, now or in the immediate future, should know. Mr. Irwin's fourth paragraph, is a subjective statement on the board's ineffectiveness to communicate clearly to its community.

I see no mention of Mr. Irwin's wife in this post.
I see no "out of control" demands on the school system (unless you believe clear communication to be an outrageous expectation).
I see no mention of Mr. Irwin's children.
I see no sense of entitlement.

Disgusted, if you have personal issues with Mr. Irwin, please communicate them through the proper, private means and not in a public forum; dropping petty, erroneous comments anonymously is both divisive and immature and does nothing to help parents look out for our children's best interests.

I, for one, am grateful for Mr. Irwin's initiative to communicate effectively with his fellow neighbors and others throughout the surrounding communities. As far as I am concerned, this is exactly what an effective leader does, and I look forward to Mr. Irwin's leadership over the next year.

http://www.bcps.org/system/policies_rules/policies/1000Series/POL1220.PDF

It's seems that this policy was neglected. Perhaps we could use this as recourse...

What a ridiculous change for Baltimore County to have made. I, also am thankful that Mr. Irwin has brought this to light. Parental involvement is crucial to proper education of the students. Splitting families in this way is a guaranteed way to discourage it.
Perhaps the new superintendent can correct it.
Disgusted, you need to get over whatever problem you have with this man. Your comments are unwarranted.

It sounds to me that the problem is that a decision was made without asking the stakeholders input, it does not matter where you stand on the issue, decions about our children's education need to include us. My daughter's attend Lutherville Lab, it is overcrowded to the poin where they have 6 trailers, maybe more next school year, I think that we couldn't handle more children, and this would be a good idea for our school, but maybe this is not the case in other magnet schools, I would like to hear the arguments of both sides, it is only fair.

While I think that "Disgusted" could have been more respectful with his/her comments, I understand the frustration. There is no reason why there should be magnet schools at the elementary level. Children under the age of 12 should not be specializing in anything yet. It is a ridiculous concept taken advantage of by residents in low performing school districts in order to send their kids to a better school. But regardless of my opinion, if you believe that some children are "gifted" enough to warrant a special program, then why should their younger siblings get to take up the space that other "gifted" children should be considered for? Plenty of families send their children to different schools for many different reasons. Considering the fact that the County even buses the kids in, it shouldn't create too much of a problem for anyone. And if you don't like the County's decision, you could send all of your children to your home school. As a matter of fact, if Cromwell Valley was a home school as it should be, it would alleviate some of the overcrowding in the other Towson area elementary schools.

It's a magnet school that you can only get in through a lottery. So, if you are lucky and win the lottery once, then all of your children are grandfathered in? That is absolutely absurd. Mr. Irwin is simply looking out for his other children that might actually have to attend a regular county school, God forbid.

Thanks for sharing this Tom. I am a parent of a CVE student and was wondering why I wasn't alerted of this change in policy... so I double checked my email and found it attached to a message about a volunteer brunch event! as a document named "dear parents"! Seems like a sneaky way to get the word out. I had already deleted it because I was not planning to attend the brunch!

It's absurd that BCPS would change this policy and not involve the parents and the school community. If nothing else, they should at least allow families already in the school to be grandfathered in.

Amy: should do more research on young learners and get a better understanding of what a magnet school and its purpose is, before commenting. And if the crowded Towson schools was a concern of BCPS, you should know that the announcement also noted they will no longer automatically accept students from within the historic walking boundaries. All students accepted after 14/15 will be lottery-based.

Disgusted: should call Tom personally to work these issues out or call a psychiatrist.

It's absurd that everyone is not subject to same rules.... My slightly under achieving child will keep your exceptional child out of a magnet school simply because his brother is already in..... Like I said ABSURD.... If you want your children parochial schooled, then go pay for it champ

Too funny how the only responders are those who obviously have more than one child with one in a magnet school. You are getting a benefit that others aren't offered, like I said before your sense of entitlement is quite disturbing

Dear Discusted, for the record, my children attend a magnet school because it is also their zoned school, my older daughter has a learing disability and my younger daughter is in the gifted program, my oldest daughter has no interest in going to a magnet middle school, while my younger one does. You are making this personal, we all may or may not agree with you, the point is that policies are being changed without notice to parents and with out giving us the opportunity to give our input, you have very valid points, but you sound angry at just Mr. Irwin, it makes people not want to listen to you. Have a nice day

Susana, nothing against Irwin. Bottom line is if you need to win a lottery to get into school , it should be that way for all outside of that zone. Not just, hey my child got lucky so my six other kids get to ride his coattails

As a parent of a child with no younger siblings, I am not affected in any way by this decision. I do, however, understand that parents would want all of their children to have the same exceptional experience at the same school regardless of the level (elem, middle, or high school). There is more to it than just wanting the convenience of only having to take your elementary aged kids to the same school. You get to know and like the teachers. The teachers find it easier to work with families they know well!! As a parent that will serve a second year on the PTA Executive Board, I am fully aware of MANY parents that NEVER pitch in for anything, whether with time or money. Since Tom has stepped up and has been elected as next year's President, it makes sense that he would want to represent all of his kids. Parents have enough trouble trying to juggle work and family so why make it harder on them? They are more likely to be involved if it isn't confusing trying to coordinate events at multiple schools! Any teacher will tell you that they wished there were more parents involved! I haven't even mentioned the fact that this was decided without any parent involvement because it it so absurd that that has happened!! I have to laugh at the absolute absurd and immature comments from "Disgusted". You are coming across as very disgruntled and are using this forum for a personal attack on Tom. Go to Happy Hour and chill out!!!!!

Everyone keeps saying that the issue is that the County didn't involve the parents in their decision, but let's face it, if you agreed with the decision, you wouldn't care that you weren't involved. Right or wrong, the County makes decisions every day without input from parents. I have elementary aged children myself, so I understand the desire to provide them with the best education possible, However, the fact that children who live within walking distance of the school may not be able to attend it because children from other school districts won a lottery is just wrong! Tax payers should be outraged by that!

I know a family whose special needs child was enrolled at another bcps elementary school (which happens to be magnet & home school) who had to sell their house and move into that school district in order for their younger child attend the same school. As wrong as I think that is, why do you think that you deserve a special privilege that no one else in the county is entitled to?

There is a lot of confusion and misunderstanding here. The important piece is that this isn't over unless you want it to be. I can see a concerted effort by the affected school's PTAs, with a big push from the individual parents against the board with discussion also directed to Kamenentz (it is his board after all) to get things changed. People are going to have to be motivated however. The board (possibly correctly) did not feel they needed public input on this issue, and expect some negative feedback. Let's give it to them.

Amy/Disgusted - Debbie, Bart, and Bills have it right. Personally I also think that the reason magnet schools do better is due to higher parental involvement. For elementary, there is no "testing" that goes on prior to acceptance, and you don't get thrown out for poor performance. I knew people in our "home school" who couldn't even be bothered to fill out the application. While the magnet program exists, having siblings in different schools presents a burden on families that try to do more than just send their kids to school.

Disgusted - Tom has his share of admirers and detractors. We support him because in doing so we support our children, which is the end goal, and I appreciate his efforts in highlighting this change.

I could care less about Cromwell being a magnet school; in fact I wish it wasn’t. I live across the street from the school with one daughter already attending, the fact that the School Board is telling me that my other two daughters may not be able to go there is absurd. Where we live we should be automatic no ifs and or buts about it. It will be interesting to see but one of the things that makes Cromwell So good is the parent involvement --- funny the most active parents are from the neighborhood and not that of children being bused in from all over the county. The fact the families had no input in this is BS ..

Disgusted - I’m assuming your kids were not accepted - Sorry about your luck, for you to make personal attacks against Tom is pathetic, he is representing the interest of the parents who have children in the school

Next time have some Balls - and sign your name

MY NAME IS ROBERT HORNBACHER

Central district schools are overcrowded. CVE and Lutherville Lab should be turned back into neighborhood schools ASAP.

PTAmom.... You are absolutly correct ... And all this is going to do is over burden Hampton Elemenrty , Stonleigh and Rogers Forge even more because parent are not goin to split their children up...not to mention the added cost of extra busses and the loss of neighborhood support to CVE

Years ago, because student population was low and to keep the buildings viable for bcps, CVE and Lutherville Lab were made into magnet schools. Now, the schools are needed by the immediate community. Our elected (and appointed) officials must find the back bone and say to out-of-district CVE families, "Go back to your home schools" Allow the current CVE students to age out. DO allow central district kids to enroll, regardless of grade level. Common sense.

If you read the article, it says that this new rule will not go into effect until the 2015-2016 school year. The County has given more than 3 years for everyone to plan accordingly.

Robert, you frighten me.

The regulation change does three things: 1) eliminates priority for community kids; 2) eliminates (eventually) sibling priority placement; and 3) preserves the rights of teachers to keep their kids in their magnet school (with no time restriction). I would like to organize an effort to persuade our elected and appointed officials to review this in the open and deal with the issue in a forthright manner. If anyone is looking to join, please email your contact information to bblack771@gmail.com.

Thanks,
Bill

Disgusted

I frighten you? … Why because I have an opinion that differs from you. You made several posts attacking an individual; you then went on to refer to the parents of CVE children as entitled. Which is fine you are entitled to your own opinion however, have a little courage when making those posts, I imagine if you weren’t embarrassed about your own comments you would have posted your name. It is obscured for me to think 2 of my girls can’t go to school together. It is absurd to think my girls would get bussed out of their neighborhood and have to go to another school. There is a lot more to this issue than just neighborhood kids.. Baltimore County should be ashamed for not allowing parental involvement on this issue.

Bill - Councilman David Marks is the elected representative for the district, I have found him very easy to work with, and he represents the area well. I have already voiced my concerns to him and have a meeting coming up with him on an unrelated subject – but will voice my concerns about the current issue while I have his ear. I would encourage people to contact him and let them know how they feel Especially if they are Campus Hills Residence

Thank you Bill. I didn't realize that teachers's children were not included in these new rules. That in itself recognizes the validity of parents' and every one else's objections.
What a farce.

PS,
Tell Bill Frank and Susan Auman too. They have been very supportive of a change to an elected School board

There are 107 elementary schools in Baltimore county. Only 7 of them have magnet programs. That is 6%. Even if you replaced the entire school board, they still have to think about the other 94%.

This sense that the County somehow owes you something on top of providing (for free) an enriched learning experience for at least one of your children is the very definition of entitlement.

Unless you have quadruplets, ALL families with more than one child will be faced with them going to different schools at one time or another simply based on their different ages. I have a friend who has two children at a County Elementary school and one at the Maryland School for the Blind on the other side of town, but I never hear her complaining! If you had a child that was a music prodigy and was admitted to the Baltimore School for the Arts, would you not send them there because your other children can't go? It's a ridiculous, selfish argument!

Please try to appreciate the opportunity that you have been given, instead of complaining about not getting more.

Different schools when the children are in different school like elementry vs middle is one thing ...to have multiple children in multiple elementry schools is ludacris . The teacher should also be held to the same standard ...if this is a done decision then their children should have to apply like all the rest ......simple solution the central elementry schools are already overcrowded ...get rid of the magnet program

Amy ... I see your analogies and those are specific issue that make sence ... I have 2 normal kids that will be one grade apart ...thee is no reason why they should be bussed out of my neighborhood to go to an overcrowded school up the road when I have one right across the street ....

Just wondering if anyone knows this...how many students attending Hampton Elementary live in Campus Hills?

I have to say, reading your comments has been very educational, there are many things happening and I was not aware of them. I have one question. Why are some schools better than others? It seems to me that if some schools are doing it right, how hard is it to make it work in other schools? All schools have the potential of being great schools, I'm new to Baltimore County Schools, so I am learning my way around here.

I've started a facebook group opposing the repeal of the sibling priority placement rule. http://www.facebook.com/groups/401388689904217/

I've also stated here all of my reasons for opposing it
http://www.facebook.com/notes/lily-parascheva-rowe/sibling-priority-placement-rule-for-baltimore-country-elementary-magnet-school-p/10151000897606163

Lily,

I think the sibling rule should exist - it directly impacts my children - However I also believe that the "neighborhood Policy" should also remain in effect. The neighborhoods children "walkers" do not take up that many spots when they start at K. I agree with a lot of what you are saying but - Elementary schools do not have the arbitrary power the throw a kid out because he/she fails. The additional overcrowding will become an issue when neighborhood students are not guaranteed admittance - so we will see in the next few years

I really want to know why after all these years of having a sibling rule so well established that no one questioned that all of a sudden they want to repeal it. I want to hear them actually articulate a response.

There is no reason to have magnet elementary schools. None. CVE was created at a time when technology was just being introduced to the community at large.

If just CVE was turned back into neighborhood school, would an addition to Hampton have been necessary? CVE has a capacity of 400 students. 400!

What's the Hampton addition?

How many schools could have been air conditioned with that money?

I live in the northeast area and I am very involved with our children's schools--especially the elementary school level. If your neighborhood school is not what you want it to be, get involved! If you have children going to middle or high school in a few years and you don't like what your hearing, get involved with those schools NOW!

Attend the Area Educational Advisory meetings, volunteer to be on SIT meetings at schools your children will attend in the future. Get involve now to make a change!

Just recently, our oldest child went to one of the best magnet high schools in the county. After 2 years of hearing teachers cuss out their students, dealing with arrogant attitudes from administration about Blue Ribbon status, PSAT scores, this high achieving child came to us and said 'enough'. We were hesitant to consider the local high school. Guess what? It has been wonderful! Instead of taking a bus for 45 minutes at 6:50am, it takes me 3 minutes to drop off/pick up. This child is taking the same caliber of classes, if not higher. Life is good.

PTAmom

we are getting involved !! a whole lot of us actually.... so we can make sure Sibling Priority Stays in place - We are involved, and are happy with out Childrens School - I am happy you are so happy about your neighborhood school ..... If you live in North East , and your Children dont lgo to CVE - how does this affect you

I graduated from Towson High ...one of the oldest high schools in the county ...we did not have A/C and we all recieved a fantastic education ... I would rather that money be spent on adding educational opertunites or programs for the children .

Robert,

CVE should be a neighborhood school, not a magnet school.

It effects ME, because I pay taxes. With my tax money, additions are added to Towson schools because of overcrowding. Yes, Towson, we all pay taxes.

CVE has seats for 400 Towson students. Hampton's addition is unnecessary.

I ABSOLUTELY agree with PTA mom!!!!!! And I think that once you start this fight, you will find that the rest of the county does too! Robert- Doesn't it bother you that the automatic acceptance of siblings is precisely the reason why your children may not be able to attend the school across the street from your home?

Students who live closer to CVE are being bused to Hampton where, like many other central area schools, there are several trailers. I don't see any trailers at CVE. It needs to reopen as a home school. The magnet program is a luxury that the County cannot afford right now!

Like most of you to me it is a personal issue .... I am in the "Walking Boundary" I have one child that attends there now and another that will in 2 years as a "Guaranteed” Sibling before the standard changes ....however then my 3rd child who would be entering the next years is not guaranteed. I simply do not want to have two children in 2 elementary school. So personally I’m ok with it going back to a neighborhood school ... however I don’t think that will happen - funding for theses schools does not necessarily come from where you think it would and Baltimore county is not going to give up that money ....if they give up Elementary School magnet programs they lose that money ....there is a lot more going on I think than we all know ....I am very disappointed in the way Baltimore County went about doing this - they have violated some of their own policies .

It boils down to money - and bottom line is it won’t get re-allocated to other schools even thought it should so I don’t see the magnet program changing

I’m concerned about my Kids - and I want them to go to school together - That’s it nothing more nothing less and I think most parents can respect that .

I don't disagree ....

Lily,
You need to read comments thoroughly before commenting.

Towson population is no different than it was 35 years ago. Campus Hills and West Towson area, etc... were filled with children. After the kids grew up, the county closed schools, turned under-used schools into senior centers, rec centers, , schools dedicated for special needs kids, or magnet schools. The same number of seats have been anticipated for years. The County didn't plan it out.

In reference to your comment about Halstaed: for the same reason a Towson parent may move because of overcrowding, if you don't want to make your neighborhood school better--MOVE.

If you are against the sibling priority change, sign the petition:
https://www.change.org/petitions/baltimore-county-public-schools-revise-rule-6400-for-sibling-priority-placement-2?utm_medium=email&utm_source=share_petition#

Lily,

My father graduated from Towson High School in 1961 with over 700 students in his class. I graduated almost 30 years later with approx. 320 students in my class. In the early 70's there were something like 700 students at Riderwood Elementary (before any addition), yet by 1979 the County had to close nearby Ruxton Elementary (now the Ridge School and West Towson) due to a drastic DROP in population. The population of Every community will fluctuate over time and the County has to have more flexibility with it's schools in order to accommodate the fluctuation. You preach as though you are an expert on population, but you don't seem to know much about the population in Towson. For the record, there has been very little new construction in Towson (keep in mind that Towson is only 2 zip codes- 21204 & 21286) in the last 20 years. I can only think of 2 new neighborhoods that were built off of Old Court Road in Ruxton, one of which is only a few homes. This overcrowding affects the entire CENTRAL AREA, and the way it is handled will affect the whole County.

Two new neighborhoods? Are you not counting the numerous apartments and condo's that have been built in the last five years? Here are a few: The Quarter, Somerset at Towson, The Palisades, Fairways at Towson, Towson Promenade. I am sure there are more. There hasn't been much new home construction because not everyone can afford to buy a house in Towson, but thanks to these places a lot more people can afford to live there. The reason your schools are overcrowded is not because of the magnet program, it is because people want to live in your neighborhood and send their children to your schools. If you have a problem with overcrowing maybe you should move or send your children to private school. That is what you are suggesting that the rest of us do, right?

April that's brilliant! Let's do that! Let's expand the magnet program! We can solve overcrowding and provide for diversity at the same time and let's keep the priority placement rules for siblings and walkers at the same time! Everyone would be happy. Think of it... no more magnet wait lists. Everyone who wants to go can.

Lily,

CVE should be turned back to a neighborhood school. It served its purpose and now it's time for it to be given back to its immediate community.

... it's worse than that. She doesn't want the "barbies" she wants the "bin" unfortunately the "bin" just so happens to be bolted to the floor of a house that doesn't belong to her. We're even building her new "bins" but she doesn't want to wait for construction. She would rather just take someone else's "bin" and throw away the "barbies" that actually belong to many different people as well. Unfortunately she doesn't understand that this "bin" is actually a complex network of "bins" which provide more than just "barbies" and undermining this "bin" would undermine the whole network. Patience is a virtue my dear.

Actually though at this point I think she just want's to win the argument. Having lost through reason she hopes to win through stomping because we've provided for her every objection and she's completely unreasonable. I submit that even if there where no overcrowding she would still object to CVE and the magnet program because some people just don't really like diversity all that much, particularly if it's in their own backyard.

PTA Mom-

Reason doesn't work with everyone. I agree with you and I'm sure that the vast majority of the County does too. I think our work here is done, since the discussion has been reduced to nonsense.

Hey everyone,

We just posted a follow-up on this issue: http://towson.patch.com/articles/marks-asks-school-system-to-revisit-magnet-rule-change